Interview with Dan Cederholm from SimpleBits.com

This month, friends of ED caught up with award-winning web designer Dan Cederholm to chat about some of the finer things in life: his new book, Web Standards Solutions, The Pixies, robots, monkeys... Oh, and Celine Dion. Argghh!

ED: Jeffrey Zeldman's written a lovely foreword in your book where he notes: “You don't need another overview or elevator pitch; you need a practical, roll-up-your-sleeves, component view, and that's what this book delivers.” So obviously your book is valuable in conjunction with his. What's the difference between the two?

DC: I think my book makes a very nice companion to Jeffrey's. No web designer should be without Designing With Web Standards – essentially the *standard* for making a case for using and implementing web standards. I think the next logical step is a "component view" (to borrow from Jeffery's foreword), where elements of building web pages are broken down, comparing multiple ways to achieve certain goals. I'd advise designers to read Zeldman first, and then read Web Standards Solutions. You will then be fully armed with some serious ammunition for standards-compliant design.

ED: There's plenty of web standards evangelism out there today: in theory at least, any self-respecting website should now use XHTML and CSS. Do you think that the web community is erecting barriers to entry that defeats the value of the Web: that of a forgiving, democratic medium where anyone can self-publish?

I've often heard complaints that "CSS is just too hard to learn". It's not easy, but I'll tell you, learning how to nest tables 3 levels deep with columns that span like a Tetris board was even harder!DC: Interesting question. I don't think every self-respecting website uses XHTML and CSS – yet. There's still quite a bit of knowledge sharing to be done. The obstacle is the learning curve. Most of us learned how to design web pages a certain way, and that way worked for awhile. But now it's time to relearn things to make things easier for everyone.

I've often heard complaints that "CSS is just too hard to learn". It's not easy, but I'll tell you, learning how to nest tables 3 levels deep with columns that span like a Tetris board was even harder!It just seems easy because it's the way we've always done things. Putting the effort into learning CSS and good markup practices isn't any harder.

ED: Do the one-man band websites even need to think about standards, when they have all the blogging tools, Dreamweaver, etc. to help them along?

DC: I think yes. Perhaps one day most won't have to think about web standards – it'll just be the default way that software operates and spits code out. But in 2004, I don't think there are 100% solutions.Just as standards development is starting to emerge as a best practice, software developers are folding those methods into their work as well. The future looks bright! Especially in the initial design/template phase. A good foundation is important, but also a clear understanding of why we design with web standards is key for maintaining a standards-based site.

As software support for standards increases, we may be able to worry less about maintaining a site built with standards. It would be ideal for content editors – those that write on the web, but are not necessarily designers or developers - to not have to worry about valid markup. Just as standards development is starting to emerge as a best practice, software developers are folding those methods into their work as well. The future looks bright!

ED: Please describe your conversion to standards (and don't say you've always used them – we won't believe you!).

The most encouraging part about converting to web standards is the strength of the community behind it: thousands of designers and developers are sharing their expertise on the web everyday. The knowledge is just waiting to be sucked up. DC: Ha. I sure haven't used them forever. Like others, it was a gradual process. Regularly reading Zeldman.com introduced me to many of the concepts – as well as A List Apart magazine. I began playing with CSS layouts for my personal website, and then Wired.com relaunched, proving that CSS layout and lean markup could work on large-scale commercial sites. Suddenly it all just clicked for me. I had been working to redesign FastCompany.com at the time and what we needed to do with Fast Company were distinctly similar to what designer Douglas Bowman did with Wired News. We decided to follow suit and go all-out with web standards. From then on it's been a learning experience everyday.

ED: Did you enjoy writing the book?

DC: I really did enjoy it. This is my first book - and a year ago I couldn't have imagined that it would happen. But interestingly, the actual writing of the book was the easiest part. I was surprised by the other facets of making a book a reality - the editing, proofing, etc. It's a long process that involved a lot of people. But working with Apress/friends of ED was fantastic, and I was pleased with the amount of freedom I was given as an author.

ED: What was the last non-techy book you read? And, for that matter, the last geeky book?

DC: The last non-techy book was the Life of Pi – a fantastic novel about an Indian boy lost at sea. It's actually hard to talk about this one without giving away the story. The last geeky book was Defensive Design for the Web by 37signals. Lots of great contingency design ideas in here. Things you would think to be obvious, but when you read them, you realize they're easily overlooked.

ED: The simple, effective cover design of your book, in line with the SimpleBits branding, is a perfect metaphor for some of the truly elegant solutions presented inside – do you have a favorite chapter/topic yourself?

Those crafty little design solutions that still keep accessibility and flexibility in mind are the ones that I love the most – and are techniques I'll continue to explore.DC: Thanks! I've gotten a fair amount of milage out the familiar three block logo – and at first, there wasn't a particular meaning behind them. But they work. Building blocks are simple. Web standards are the building blocks of great web sites.

As far as a favorite chapter – I'll say Chapter 4: Quotations. In particular I like the <blockquote> example, a bullet-proof and stylish way of handling a rounded box that contains a quotation. Those crafty little design solutions that still keep accessibility and flexibility in mind are the ones that I love the most – and are techniques I'll continue to explore.

ED: Flash – evil, or savior of the universe?

DC: Somewhere in between for me. I don't personally use it, but I do see its value when used properly. People like Todd Dominey and Shaun Inman are integrating Flash with CSS-ified layouts with fantastic results. I'm always amazed with subtle Flash is added to sites that enhance it greatly from a design and interaction view, while not hindering the accessibility.

ED: There's plenty of hype about blogs and XML aggregators around at the moment - has using an aggregator significantly changed the way in which you browse?

DC: I'd say personally it has. I've only recently begun using a dedicated newsreader (NetNewsWire) for managing RSS feeds. I still use the blo.gs service for seeing which of my favorite weblogs have updated recently. That's really all the info I need. When using a newsreader, I'll check to see who's updated, then go directly to the site. I'm from the camp that prefers to read a sites content in its original wrapper. The design of the site adds a value to the content that sometimes falls flat in a text-only newsreader.

But the fact that through XML feeds, we're able to develop tools that monitor the flow of content, it's just fantastic technology.

ED: If you weren't a web guy, what would you be doing?

DC: I'd be touring in a band. Music is all I wanted to do for the better part of my life - now I do this. Touring realistically wouldn't be all that fun, unless I had my own bus or something.

ED: Coincidently, the ED folks have been considering buying an old ambulance and patrolling the streets on the lookout for 'design emergencies', delivering books to those in need of inspiration... Can you drive an ambulance? Come on, it'll be like Ghostbusters! Only slightly more standards-compliant…

DC: Count me in. It sounds a bit like Queer Eye for the Straight Guy meets Food 911 (another decent show). I'm all for hitting people over the head with good design books (not literally of course… although it will be an ambulance…).

ED: So what were the last three albums you listened to?

DC: Most of the time I have iTunes or my iPod on shuffle, but here's a few that have recently been listened to all the way through:

Let Go by Nada Surf - a surprising one… a one-hit wonder of sorts from the 90s reinvents themselves to create a masterpiece of an album.
Doolittle by the Pixies - because I'm getting fired up to see them live.
Better Can't Make Your Life Better by Lilys - if you like the Byrds, Kinks, etc. an album I just can't get sick of, from an obscure band that is always completely reinventing their sound. Wish they stuck with this one.

ED: If you take an average of all the musical interests in the ED office, you'll probably come out with Morrisey with a mohawk, playing grind-core Electronica. Who are your favorite performers (in any field)?

DC: A tough one. I used to drum a lot, so I'll say Stewart Copeland from the Police. I play guitar as well, so I'll add Joey Santiago from the aforementioned Pixies. As a Red Sox fan I'll say Manny Ramirez. He's a strange one, but hits the ball like no other.

As they become more commonplace, the hope is that standards become second nature to those developing around them. Progress is being made, but unfortunately there are workarounds that are necessary in 2004.ED: Why aren't web standards universal?

DC: Well, I tend to think they are - it's the browsers, software vendors and device manufacturers that need to catch up. As web designers, we've been dealing with browsers that primarily have only a certain support for standards. As they become more commonplace, the hope is that standards become second nature to those developing around them. Progress is being made, but unfortunately there are workarounds that are necessary in 2004.

ED: What's your favorite typeface?

DC: I'll say DIN. A few years ago, Fast Company magazine was using it heavily, and I sort of warmed up to it then. A great sans serif font.

ED: Celine Dion is the "Comic Sans" of music. Discuss.

DC: So true indeed. And Led Zeppelin is the Times New Roman: highly respectable, good to fall back on. Perhaps the Backstreet Boys are Arial – at one time it was everywhere, used by the masses, not such a great font, but popular because of it's availability. I could go on and on...

ED: Please do! Which fonts are most like Velvet Underground, My Bloody Valentine, The Clash, Michael Jackson?

DC: Hmm... I'd say VU and the Clash are more like Times New Roman again (and I'm thinking purely in web fonts here): classic, revered. My Bloody Valentine is Georgia : few use it, but those that do properly are rewarded. Michael Jackson is Verdana: perhaps the most widely used font on the web - but you can't deny it's usefulness. We can only hope Verdana doesn't run into trouble in the future…

ED: If you were an XHTML tag, which one would you be?

DC: I think I'd be unordered list, <ul>, I seem to frequently have a list of things to do, but never accomplished in a certain order.

ED: Dude, how cool are robots?!

My wife and I often talk about getting a monkey to make the bed and vacuum. DC: The coolest! I've always loved them. And monkeys. My wife and I often talk about getting a monkey to make the bed and vacuum. A robot will soon be able to do this as well.

ED: Thanks for your time Dan, you rule!

DC: The pleasure was mine, thanks!

Dan Cederholm lives in Salem , Massachusetts , and runs the popular resource site and blog www.simplebits.com . His new book, Web Standards Solutions: The Markup and Style Handbook is available now in all good bookstores. For further details, sample chapter, and ordering, look here.